::GTapex:: - Naturally Aspirated Skills
September 20, 2017, 09:37:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: New Cars Coming.. At some point..

Nissan: GT-R, Sky80, BNR32, HCR32, PS13,
Subaru: GC8
Toyota: GX81 MKII, AE86 Levin, TE27
Honda: DC2
VW: RSI

Released: AE86 Trueno, DR30 Skyline, KPGC10 Skyline(Beta)
GTapex Mp3 Player: Launch!

READ THE RULES! They're your friends.. Go Ahead. Read 'em. Even if you dont want to.

FAQ ON USING PARTS FOR RACER : Read this before asking, its probably been answered before.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 2007 Challenge - Honda EP3/S  (Read 9502 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
blu_truth
User
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« on: May 24, 2007, 01:21:57 PM »

Here's what I've got planned so far.  I want to take the much maligned EP3 CTR to it's (somewhat) realistic limits in terms of driving ability.  This means that the car won't necessarily look pretty as the modifications get more and more out of hand.

Tuning theme: Ultimate EP3 Type-R

Engine:
   1998 Honda S2000 Engine - swapped - 240 bhp stock - max hp at ~9300rpm
   Comptech Aftercooled Supercharger - +70-80 hp at crank
   HKS Super Mega Flow Intake
   HKS Hi-Power Exhaust
---------------------------------------------------------
   final spec: 318 hp @ 9300 rpm, 180 ft/lb @ 6600 rpm

Flywheel: Spoon 4.6 kg aluminum flywheel


Transmission:
   Acura RDX Transmission - swapped **** (current iteration of insanity)
   4.857 Final gear

Wheels:
   5zigen ProRacer GN+ 19x10.5

Tires:
   Bridgestone Potenza ****285/35/ZR19

Brakes:
   Brembo tailor-made cross drilled 12 inch rotors
   Brembo 4 piston calipers

Suspension:
   Tien Flex Coilovers
   Upgraded ARBs

Body:
   Carbon Fiber Front Splitter
   Carbon Fiber Hood
   Carbon Fiber Fender Flares
   Sport-Type Hatch Spoiler

There will be more things added before I say "done" so stay tuned for more craziness.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 12:21:39 PM by blu_truth » Logged
Cosmo°
荒木雷
GTapex R&D
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1730


32サイドアップ


« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2007, 02:40:59 PM »

Nice to see you taking part in this Blu_Truth, I know you got the ambition to keep it at a high level of realism and quality Smiley
Looks are not much of concern here, so don't worry about them.

From what I an see, your engine tuning is rather mild and you could even get the same power from the F20C without the charger, if you wanted.
Wheels and tyres don't match up I'd say - a 8.5 width rim with a 285 width tyre doesn't make for a stable handling at all,
if it would even be a safe fit I don't know for sure now.
Also, I couldn't find any of the Potenza tyres with 285/45 in 17" - 17" usually doesn't go that wide, 18" does, but with a lower sidewall
aspect of around 30-40. With 8.5 rims, something around 235 will work a lot better and they also come in different sidedwall aspect ratios. In general I think that 285 width tyres would be a bit of a waste for only 320hp anyway, you'd not get much from them despite
more unsprung weight to carry around and more time to them spin them up. I can't tell you what fits under stock EP3 fenders, maybe Turbo G knows out of hand, but if you'd go for 9" wide rims and maybe 245 or 255 tyres, you should have enough grip for your grunt.
Logged



いつでも、どこでも、スモーキー
RE turbo G
mr. hamtaro
GTapex Enforcer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1408


step to the beat!


WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2007, 11:04:34 PM »

the F20C isnt going to fit in the bay of a K car that easily.. the F and the K are similar, but they're more cousins than twins.. you'd have to do all sorts of drilling and welding to the block... and/or the chassis.. to get it to stay in there.. or find one of those mythical adapter kits out there. and that's if it really would even work. i've never seen a 9-inch wheel on a FF honda without fat fenders.. an 8 should just barely clear, and an 8.5 should be possible with some fender rolling and a lot of camber.. 9's will probably stick out or just not fit.. unless you cut up the metal and get overfenders. the specs are pretty bad for a supercharged engine too.. superchargers are usually bolted on for low-end grunt and arent all that efficient at higher revs.. and is the 180 ft lb at 9300 also your peak torque? not sure whether it's an oversight or not, but you never.. or atleast almost never get peak power and torque at the same revs..

i'd expect something more like 325ps @8500rpm and ~30-35 kgm @ 6000-7500 revs.. if not earlier. my NA K20 makes ~354ps at 11200 revs, and the torque level is about 27 kg/m at 9400.. (but it also makes almost 26 at 7600)  and it's NA.. so a supercharged cousin of the engine shouldnt be making the peak torque at 9XXX unless the peak power comes on at nearly 12k revs.. those specs sound like something similar to the J's Racing NA S2000.. boost is your pal because it makes everything happen earlier than it would with NA tuning, you dont have to run silly super-powerful cams with an SC, so you can rev lower and make the same amount of or more power.. at those revs plus boost (if the supercharger didnt break) you'd be making atleast 360-400ps based on what it sounds like your cams are like. if you're sticking in an entire S2000 driveline, you'd be better off with just using the whole S2000.. putting the F20C into a snub-nosed EP civic longitudinally would be harrrrrrrd work, you cant really even see the exhaust manifold on an EP3 that well when the K20's in there installed all FF-style. getting decent weight distribution, or even just keeping the front of the engine from sticking out the bonnet just about requires you to sit in the back seat.. and it still wouldnt work as well as an S2000
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:49:32 AM by RE turbo G » Logged

GTapex has more tyte cars than you. that's why your mom likes us better.
Cosmo°
荒木雷
GTapex R&D
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1730


32サイドアップ


« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 03:03:33 AM »

Comptech chargers are centrifugal type, aren't they? As such, out of the crank-driven chargers they have the most turbo-like performance. I'm not going to doubt the 6-7k torque peak being most likely, but from what I remember, these chargers can easily keep the original F20's torque band shape, just a bit steeper. Meaning, that the late torque peak wouldn't surprise me at all, unlike the low output he claims from it. On the other hand, he might not have told us the peak torque at all, 180lb/ft simply gives you the ~320hp @ 9300rpm, so who knows ^^

I'm sure a quick Google for F20C+Comptech will give you some hints on what to expect Blu_Truth Smiley As Turbo G said, 350-400hp is more like it, without much trying. A lot of shops offer standard kits for this combination, so you can get a good overview of what is a safe range.
If the 320hp area is where you want to land in the end, I'd reconsider going for the charger in the first place - you'd better put that fabrication into the drivetrain fitment indeed Grin
Logged



いつでも、どこでも、スモーキー
RE turbo G
mr. hamtaro
GTapex Enforcer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1408


step to the beat!


WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2007, 11:03:25 AM »

there's always cutting up the floorplan and dropping in a CR-V rear end, grabbing a CR-V K24A block, stealing the head off a DC5R, and THEN supercharging it.. then even with nearly no boost and 2.4L of displacement AND at low revs, you'll make the same power.. and a noticeable amount more torque. then there are kits to bring the displacement of a K24A to 2.7 liters.. with some hard NA tuning, you can probably reach almost 500ps. or else there's the 2.6L bored and stroked K24A turbo that'll most likely yield upwards of 800ps with the right settings. and then there's the factory turbocharged K23A from the acura RDX.. which has SH-AWD.. and is probably pretty close in relation to the civic. you could hack one of those up and build the ultimate EP aswell.. the block is definitely good for boost, the axles are stronger than the CR-V units, and the engine is optimized for forced induction.. so you could even just yank the engine, ditch the turbo, slap on a S/C and then see what that puts down.. cramming a longitudinally mounted engine into a chassis that barely fits a transverse engine in there might be kinda hard to engineer..
Logged

GTapex has more tyte cars than you. that's why your mom likes us better.
discoquinn
User
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 525


Speed Hero


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2007, 03:41:48 PM »

All this theory and no pictures makes Jesus kill more GT-R's.
Logged

The Dark Shadow
User
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 509


Am I annoying you yet?


WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 04:50:08 PM »

Fortunatly?
 Grin
Logged
RE turbo G
mr. hamtaro
GTapex Enforcer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1408


step to the beat!


WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2007, 06:52:02 PM »

for some more theory, you ought to look up the honda drift element (H-T 05-2007), and maybe even jun's 4WD Z33.. (Modified 05-2007)

not sure whether it's totally cool or not to post an entire scan of the magazine article online.. it's from the May 2007 issue.. but liek, u no.... dun tel honda tuning, k? Tongue

oh.. and they're somewhat big.

http://gregval.phpwebhosting.com/uploads/elementP1.jpg
http://gregval.phpwebhosting.com/uploads/elementP2.jpg
http://gregval.phpwebhosting.com/uploads/elementP3.jpg
http://gregval.phpwebhosting.com/uploads/elementP4.jpg
http://gregval.phpwebhosting.com/uploads/elementP5.jpg
http://gregval.phpwebhosting.com/uploads/elementP6.jpg

anywho, if you're really set on the longitudinal thing, i think a V6 will be easier to fit in the civic's nose than a L4... maybe see about a C32B stroked to 3.5L or something.. transverse L4 is still the easiest, though.. Tongue
Logged

GTapex has more tyte cars than you. that's why your mom likes us better.
discoquinn
User
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 525


Speed Hero


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2007, 03:48:02 AM »

The Second gen Acura Legend had a North-South layout like a RWD, but with a FWD transmission. C32A motor actually. Equal length front shafts for torque steer-less fun.

Logged

Cosmo°
荒木雷
GTapex R&D
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1730


32サイドアップ


« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2007, 04:11:36 AM »

blu_truth: I noticed you changed the peak torque rpm, did you look around some more or was it just a typo before...

Unlike in the case of the drift Element, there aren't as many rules to obey to in Class C here. So, I don't think that cutting and fiddling with random structural components at the front of the car is a big problem, as long as there is some sort of reasonable description/thought behind it.

Sure, the C32 is shorter, but it's also heavier (overall & top) than the F20. Then again, you can get more power out of it - but that's relevant in a power range where you have to ask yourself whether it's all that useful in that chassis. Science of Speed offer a couple of bore&stroke kits for the C30/32, from 3.4l up to 3.8l - they get nice numbers from it and it all seems to be reliable and still streetable.

Anyway, if I had to build a RWD Civic, I'd look into getting the whole thing into MR spec Grin
Though, I have to say, before we keep discussing this  further and further, maybe blu_truth himself wants to give us an update on his own thoughts?
Logged



いつでも、どこでも、スモーキー
RE turbo G
mr. hamtaro
GTapex Enforcer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1408


step to the beat!


WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2007, 07:28:27 AM »

a big V6 is a LOT torquier everywhere than some revvy L4.. and low-down torque is best for acceleration out of hairpins.. dry-sumping and moving the engine back as far as is possible would help to alleviate some of the balance loss from the weight gain of the big six. everyone does MR.. noone's done a FR civic that's been meant to handle yet.. or not to my knowledge.. i think there have been a few FR drag civics, though. as usual, all this looking around at tech is makign me want to hurt a civic with a FR V6 myself...
Logged

GTapex has more tyte cars than you. that's why your mom likes us better.
blu_truth
User
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2007, 10:25:01 AM »

Hmm...  I've been trying to make a post since yesterday and I'm having no luck.  Sad

Edit: Here's what I was trying to say.

Sounds like I've maybe stirred up a bit of controversy here.  Smiley  You've raised some good points and also enlightened me on a few points I wasn't sure about.

So here's the breakdown.

1.  The torque discussion:  This is a genuine typo, the actual max torque is produced at or around 6600 (i think 6550 exact) rpm which hopefully makes a bit more sense.

2.  The engine choice:  I knew when I chose the F20C that it wasn't going to be a simple drop in fit, but I still wanted to use it because it has true sports car engineering put into it.  I heard from a friend in Boston that there's a EG6 running a S2000 engine and tranny so I figured if it's possible in the EG6, then although it might be difficult in the EP3, it should be doable.  I also saw these pictures http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1979743&page=1 which further gave me hope.  I might have to make some modifications to the front end to allow for proper fitment.

3.  The tire/wheel problems:  I'm somewhat (very) ignorant when it comes to tire/wheel sizes so I guess the size I was going for might not be as easy to get to as I had originally thought.  The fender issues won't be a problem as you'll soon see when I post a pic of progress.  I'd really like to utilize all the grip potential of some wide tires so if I find that it's too tame with the big shoes, the engine will get a further working over.

4.  Lack of pictures:  Give me a minute on that one and I'll hopefully have something to show
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 10:28:45 AM by blu_truth » Logged
blu_truth
User
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2007, 11:02:06 AM »

Woo!  Double post time.  Cheesy

Ok, so time for more planning.  I read the Element D article which I found VERY cool.  It definitely gave me a new outlook on the whole project planning thing.

Here's what my latest crazy thoughts are going to.  I still want the F20C (sorry, I'm really dead set on it), but I think I'm going to change things up here a bit.  As you could see in my specifications listing, there was still the transmission choice which was still up in the air.  Although I'm still not 100% set on it, I'm definitely now leaning towards a forward-biased AWD setup.  So then the next question becomes, can I somewhat realistically source an AWD system from a Honda, or will I have to go elsewhere?  I'd love to hear from people who know more about this than I do.  From what I can remember, there's the Element, the CR-V, the RDX and MDX, and the RL's SH-AWD system.  Obviously the SH-AWD system wouldn't be able to be replicated in Racer, so I'd throw it out just for that reason.  Are there other options that I haven't considered?

With the AWD system on the table, the F20C can now be mounted transversely to mount up with the transaxle which should make the engine fit possible again.  The mount up of the engine to the tranny would most likely require a custom fabricated bell housing.  Exactly what else would be required is still unknown to me.  If for some reason a Honda AWD system can't be found, I'll have to go with something a little more extreme.  Right now as my back up plan, I'm thinking Xtrac 6 speed sequential racing gearbox.  But hopefully it won't come to that.  Smiley

@discoquinn:  Thanks for that explanation.  I always wondered why torque steer occurred.  Cheesy

@Cosmo
Logged
RE turbo G
mr. hamtaro
GTapex Enforcer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1408


step to the beat!


WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2007, 12:32:31 PM »

i've already got some representation of every civic generation from 1983 to the EK.. my EG is slated to be a B-powered car, or maybe an H, and the EK would be a K-powered car if i put it ingame.. only one i have left is the EP and the FG, and i have plans for an FG already too.. so the EP would be my V6 car.. Tongue as for the FR F-series, you'll basically just have to hack the crap out of the floorpan, (you'll still be hacking it up with AWD) possibly slant the engine really hard (if it's possible) and get a custom-ish rear end.. and if it's to be 4WD, you're still going to have your work cut out for you on engine and trans mounts.. the custom bellhousing is a step in the right direction.. but you'll probably want some more torque if you're doing the 4WD thing.. :p you're going to have to think about how many differentials you want to have now.. a permanent version of SH-AWD from the RDX might be your best bet for being dropped into the civic, since i think the chassis of the RDX is more similar to the one of the civic.  the MDX and RL are probably about the same, and more suited for an accord.. the CR-V probably isnt all that beefy, and the element probably has the same problem.. there's a good chance the only honda part of the car will be the engine and the bodyshell/chassis.. Tongue
Logged

GTapex has more tyte cars than you. that's why your mom likes us better.
blu_truth
User
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2007, 12:31:04 PM »

Does this qualify as altering the car's silhouette? Cheesy



Sorry, it's an older pic, but I felt like posting it anyways.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!